Currently Greater Curse lists target as entity or object. 

The question is, should the object target be there. I came up with some
guidelines for the use of curse on items but on discussion with GM's the
indication was that the target was probably a mistake. 

So basic question (hopefully not sparking 5 days of antagonistic debate)


Should Greater Curse be able to be used on Items?

Mandos
/s


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Yes

Traditionally many treasure items are cursed.  This is one of the ways of=20
making it more risky to loot : - )
I think it would be better have a standard mechanism in the rules for=20
cursing / and removing same.

Regards
Rosemary




Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>=20
Sent by: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
26/04/2006 09:37 a.m.
Please respond to
dq@dq.sf.org.nz


To
dq@dq.sf.org.nz
cc

Subject
[dq] Curses and Objects.







Currently Greater Curse lists target as entity or object.=20

The question is, should the object target be there. I came up with some
guidelines for the use of curse on items but on discussion with GM's the
indication was that the target was probably a mistake.=20

So basic question (hopefully not sparking 5 days of antagonistic debate)


Should Greater Curse be able to be used on Items?

Mandos
/s


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<br><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif">Yes</font><br><br><font size=3D2 fac=
e=3D"sans-serif">Traditionally many treasure items are
cursed. &nbsp;This is one of the ways of making it more risky to loot :
- )</font><br><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif">I think it would be better=
 have a standard
mechanism in the rules for cursing / and removing same.</font><br><br><font=
 size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif">Regards</font><br><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans=
-serif">Rosemary</font><br><br><br><br><table width=3D100%><tr valign=3Dtop=
><td width=3D40%><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif"><b>Mandos Mitchinson &l=
t;MandosM@adhb.govt.nz&gt;</b></font><br><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif"=
>Sent by: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</font><p><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif"=
>26/04/2006 09:37 a.m.</font><table border><tr valign=3Dtop><td bgcolor=3Dw=
hite><div align=3Dcenter><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">Please respond =
to<br>dq@dq.sf.org.nz</font></div></table><br><td width=3D59%><table width=
=3D100%><tr valign=3Dtop><td><div align=3Dright><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans=
-serif">To</font></div><td><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">dq@dq.sf.org.=
nz</font><tr valign=3Dtop><td><div align=3Dright><font size=3D1 face=3D"san=
s-serif">cc</font></div><td><tr valign=3Dtop><td><div align=3Dright><font s=
ize=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">Subject</font></div><td><font size=3D1 face=3D"=
sans-serif">[dq] Curses and Objects.</font></table><br><table><tr valign=3D=
top><td><td></table><br></table><br><br><br><font size=3D2><tt><br>Currentl=
y Greater Curse lists target as entity or object. <br><br>The question is, =
should the object target be there. I came up with some<br>guidelines for th=
e use of curse on items but on discussion with GM's the<br>indication was t=
hat the target was probably a mistake. <br><br>So basic question (hopefully=
 not sparking 5 days of antagonistic debate)<br><br><br>Should Greater Curs=
e be able to be used on Items?<br><br>Mandos<br>/s<br><br><br>-- to unsubsc=
ribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --<br><br>- - - - - - - - - - - =
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Snap. I agree with Rosemary.

Jonathan
  -----Original Message-----
  From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
RMansfield@ingnz.com
  Sent: Wednesday, 26 April 2006 9:45 a.m.
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
  Subject: Re: [dq] Curses and Objects.



  Yes

  Traditionally many treasure items are cursed.  This is one of the ways of
making it more risky to loot : - )
  I think it would be better have a standard mechanism in the rules for
cursing / and removing same.

  Regards
  Rosemary



        Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>
        Sent by: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
        26/04/2006 09:37 a.m.Please respond to
              dq@dq.sf.org.nz


       To dq@dq.sf.org.nz
              cc
              Subject [dq] Curses and Objects.








  Currently Greater Curse lists target as entity or object.

  The question is, should the object target be there. I came up with some
  guidelines for the use of curse on items but on discussion with GM's the
  indication was that the target was probably a mistake.

  So basic question (hopefully not sparking 5 days of antagonistic debate)


  Should Greater Curse be able to be used on Items?

  Mandos
  /s


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<DIV><SPAN class=3D783554721-25042006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Snap.=20
I agree with Rosemary.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D783554721-25042006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D783554721-25042006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Jonathan</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of=20
  </B>RMansfield@ingnz.com<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 26 April 2006 9:45 =

  a.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Curses =
and=20
  Objects.<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif=20
  size=3D2>Yes</FONT><BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2>Traditionally many=20
  treasure items are cursed. &nbsp;This is one of the ways of making it =
more=20
  risky to loot : - )</FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>I think =
it would be=20
  better have a standard mechanism in the rules for cursing / and =
removing=20
  same.</FONT><BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2>Regards</FONT><BR><FONT=20
  face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>Rosemary</FONT><BR><BR><BR><BR>
  <TABLE width=3D"100%">
    <TBODY>
    <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
      <TD width=3D"40%"><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><B>Mandos =
Mitchinson=20
        &lt;MandosM@adhb.govt.nz&gt;</B></FONT><BR><FONT =
face=3Dsans-serif=20
        size=3D1>Sent by: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
        <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>26/04/2006 09:37 a.m.</FONT>
        <TABLE border=3D1>
          <TBODY>
          <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
            <TD bgColor=3Dwhite>
              <DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D1>Please respond=20
              =
to<BR>dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT></DIV></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></P>
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              <DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
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            <TD><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
          <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
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              <DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D1>cc</FONT></DIV>
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              <DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
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            <TD><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>[dq] Curses and=20
          Objects.</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR>
        <TABLE>
          <TBODY>
          <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
            <TD>
            =
<TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><BR><FONT=20
  size=3D2><TT><BR>Currently Greater Curse lists target as entity or =
object.=20
  <BR><BR>The question is, should the object target be there. I came up =
with=20
  some<BR>guidelines for the use of curse on items but on discussion =
with GM's=20
  the<BR>indication was that the target was probably a mistake. =
<BR><BR>So basic=20
  question (hopefully not sparking 5 days of antagonistic=20
  debate)<BR><BR><BR>Should Greater Curse be able to be used on=20
  Items?<BR><BR>Mandos<BR>/s<BR><BR><BR>-- to unsubscribe notify=20
  mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --<BR><BR>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - =
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ING (NZ)=20
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Given the comments from Rosemary and Jono, here are the guidelines I
have been using. My imagination is pretty poor so there are probably
lots of other things that could be added and the points may need a bit
of reworking. 


Additional Rules for Greater Cursing Objects v1.0

While the Greater Curse spell description indicates objects may be
targeted there are no guidelines for this. While the possible curses
that can be placed on an item are at the discretion of the GM this
document is intended to provide guidelines for both the GM and the
Player who has the spell.  

In order to encourage ranking of this expensive spell the abilities
available are Rank dependant. 

When producing a curse for an item the adept may have 5+Rk points to
spend on the following abilities. Any abilities may be combined. To
remove any effects requires a Major Curse removal with the MA of the
Curse being that of the creator.

Damage
2pt per point of damage
3pt per point of Stat Drain

1pt per +20lbs of weight

Damage Speed 
0pt - per week (default)
1pt - per day
5pt - per hour
10pt - per min

5pt - Glows: The object will give off an eldritch glow when touched 
5pt - Sticky: Once touched a curse removal is required to remove the
item.
5pt - Forced concentration: Once someone starts to read runes/writing on
the item they are forced to read the entire text aloud. (This may allow
spells to be cast)
5pt - Stings: The item will appear harmless but will inflict damage each
time it is touched.
5pt - Odours: The Object smells foul. 
5pt - Noisy: The object will make a noise, a short speech may be
included as part of the curse. 
5pt - Aura Trigger: The curse will only trigger on specific Aura details
as per Ward.
5pt - Curse activation delay: The full effect of the curse may be
delayed for up to Rank days. 
5pt - Contingency: The curse will only be triggered under specific
circumstances (e.g a book being opened).

10pt - Mobile: The item is fully mobile as if living.
10pt - Flight: The object can fly although this may never be under the
control of a rider. 
10pt - Causes Pain: The Object inflicts pain as per the spell of agony.
10pt - Personality change: The object may cause a victim to change
personality.
10pt - Illusion: The object will not be as it appears.

15pt - Soul Storage: An entity's soul may be stored within the object.
This may impart intelligence to the item. 
15pt - Enchanted Sleep: The victim will fall asleep for 100 years.

20pt - Stored Shape-change: The victim may be changed to a new form.
20pt - Stored Lycanthopy: The victim will become a werecreature. 
20pt - Contagion: Any effects caused by the cursed item may spread from
entity to entity by touch or other means.


Mandos
/s


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>Snap. I agree with Rosemary.

So do I, and there are several items in games that would be cursed such as:
         The belt that immediately changes your sex
         The sword that you can't let go and forces you to fight
         The armour that won't come off and attracts missile fire

... and I'm sure there are a lot of other items that game masters can 
introduce for hilarious results.

Keith


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Jonathan Bean - TME wrote:

> Snap. I agree with Rosemary.
>  
> Jonathan

I also agree with Rosemary.

Cursed items are a common part of Fantasy, mythology, and gaming tradition.

Scott Whitaker


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How do items generally become 'cursed'? My perception is that it is part of
the shaping process, and we don't have laid out rules for how that works.
Most 'cursed' items can't have their curses removed without god-level
intervention, or removing all magical abilities.
 
Someone using standard rules to create an item, then using Greater Curse to
reduce/limit its utility seems very non-typical to me (sometimes e.g.
churches make investeds that hurt non-followers that try to use them). Even
rarer is an ability to remove the curse through standard means without
destroying the item (only a few items give the MA of the curse, the others
imply that Remove Curse won't work on them). Maybe it is rare because people
don't realise that the standard ability exists?
 
If we want to lay out some standard rules for PCs to curse stuff, fine, but
I don't think it should be confused with the process which creates most
#NEAT_THING#s with #BAD_STUFF# inter-twined.
 
Cheers
Errol

-----Original Message-----
From: RMansfield@ingnz.com [mailto:RMansfield@ingnz.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 26 April 2006 09:45
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Curses and Objects.



Yes

Traditionally many treasure items are cursed.  This is one of the ways of
making it more risky to loot : - )
I think it would be better have a standard mechanism in the rules for
cursing / and removing same.

Regards
Rosemary




Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>
Sent by: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz 


26/04/2006 09:37 a.m. 


Please respond to
dq@dq.sf.org.nz



To
dq@dq.sf.org.nz 

cc

Subject
[dq] Curses and Objects.

	





Currently Greater Curse lists target as entity or object. 

The question is, should the object target be there. I came up with some
guidelines for the use of curse on items but on discussion with GM's the
indication was that the target was probably a mistake. 

So basic question (hopefully not sparking 5 days of antagonistic debate)


Should Greater Curse be able to be used on Items?

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --




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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=520590622-25042006>How do 
items generally become 'cursed'? My perception is that it is part of the shaping 
process, and we don't have laid out rules for how that works. Most 'cursed' 
items can't have their curses removed without god-level intervention, or 
removing all magical abilities.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=520590622-25042006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=520590622-25042006>Someone using standard rules to create an item, then 
using Greater Curse to reduce/limit its utility seems very non-typical to me 
(sometimes e.g. churches make investeds that hurt non-followers that try to use 
them). Even rarer is an ability to remove the curse through standard means 
without destroying the item (only a few items give the MA of the curse, the 
others imply that Remove Curse won't work on them). Maybe it is rare because 
people don't realise that the standard ability exists?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=520590622-25042006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=520590622-25042006>If we 
want to lay out some standard rules for PCs to curse stuff, fine, but I don't 
think it should be confused with the process which creates most #NEAT_THING#s 
with #BAD_STUFF# inter-twined.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=520590622-25042006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=520590622-25042006>Cheers</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=520590622-25042006>Errol</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> RMansfield@ingnz.com 
  [mailto:RMansfield@ingnz.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 26 April 2006 
  09:45<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Curses and 
  Objects.<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR><FONT face=sans-serif 
  size=2>Yes</FONT><BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Traditionally many 
  treasure items are cursed. &nbsp;This is one of the ways of making it more 
  risky to loot : - )</FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>I think it would be 
  better have a standard mechanism in the rules for cursing / and removing 
  same.</FONT><BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Regards</FONT><BR><FONT 
  face=sans-serif size=2>Rosemary</FONT><BR><BR><BR><BR>
  <TABLE width="100%">
    <TBODY>
    <TR vAlign=top>
      <TD width="40%"><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>Mandos Mitchinson 
        &lt;MandosM@adhb.govt.nz&gt;</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif 
        size=1>Sent by: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
        <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>26/04/2006 09:37 a.m.</FONT>
        <TABLE border=1>
          <TBODY>
          <TR vAlign=top>
            <TD bgColor=white>
              <DIV align=center><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Please respond 
              to<BR>dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT></DIV></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></P>
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              <DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>To</FONT></DIV>
            <TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
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              <DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>cc</FONT></DIV>
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              <DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Subject</FONT></DIV>
            <TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>[dq] Curses and 
          Objects.</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR>
        <TABLE>
          <TBODY>
          <TR vAlign=top>
            <TD>
            <TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><BR><FONT 
  size=2><TT><BR>Currently Greater Curse lists target as entity or object. 
  <BR><BR>The question is, should the object target be there. I came up with 
  some<BR>guidelines for the use of curse on items but on discussion with GM's 
  the<BR>indication was that the target was probably a mistake. <BR><BR>So basic 
  question (hopefully not sparking 5 days of antagonistic 
  debate)<BR><BR><BR>Should Greater Curse be able to be used on 
  Items?<BR><BR>Mandos<BR>/s<BR><BR><BR>-- to unsubscribe notify 
  mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --<BR><BR></TT></FONT><FONT 
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On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 09:45, RMansfield@ingnz.com wrote:
> Yes
> 
> Traditionally many treasure items are cursed.  This is one of the ways
> of making it more risky to loot : - )
> I think it would be better have a standard mechanism in the rules for
> cursing / and removing same.
> 
> Regards
> Rosemary

With rare exceptions (such as illusion and binder permanency) magic
items typically found as loot are not creatable under the current DQ
rules. Sweeping cursed items under the "shaper" carpet would be
consistent with current practise. 

Watch out for unintended consequences - such as cursed items which get
"fixed" by a remove curse ritual.

(I don't have a strong opinion on this, I'm just pointing out some
counter arguments.)


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> If we want to lay out some standard rules for PCs to curse stuff,
fine, but I don't think
> it should be confused with the process which creates most
#NEAT_THING#s with #BAD_STUFF# inter-twined.

It has no bearing on this at all Errol. 

Ignore shaped things and other oddities. 

This is only concerned with the targeting of the spell 'Major Curse' and
guidelines for it's use given that it is a player available spell. 

If you want curses only on shaped items then it is a simple choice of No
to the targetting question :0)

Mandos
/s


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<html>

<P>I'm not about gainsay anyone regarding fantasy worlds being awash with cursed items, but I'd like to re-ask the question as it applies to players and NPCs.&nbsp; GMs, naturally, do not and should suffer restrictions on their ability to create cursed items beyond their own common sense, love of the game, and high regard for their players.</P>
<P>Should we take the time to create a codified system for the severity and effect of object based Greater Curses, leave it undefined and "wingable",&nbsp;or pretend that it never was?</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>ben<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<B>On Wed Apr 26 9:37 , Mandos Mitchinson &lt;MandosM@adhb.govt.nz&gt; sent:<BR>
<BR>
</P></B>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><BR>
Currently Greater Curse lists target as entity or object. <BR>
<BR>
The question is, should the object target be there. I came up with some<BR>
guidelines for the use of curse on items but on discussion with GM's the<BR>
indication was that the target was probably a mistake. <BR>
<BR>
So basic question (hopefully not sparking 5 days of antagonistic debate)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Should Greater Curse be able to be used on Items?<BR>
<BR>
Mandos<BR>
/s<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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> Should we take the time to create a codified system for the severity
and effect of
> object based Greater Curses, leave it undefined and "wingable", or
pretend that it
> never was?

I agree as long as the target of Greater Curse is changed to only affect
entities.

To curse an entity costs a point of endurance and is not something that
players do Willy nilly. 

Objects on the other hand are more likely to be used due to the lack of
penalty. It is simply a spell, with no guadelines as to it's effect even
within the spell writeup. 

Given that players can wander around cursing things to their hearts
content it seems a good idea to apply some guidelines to this to give
players an idea of what they can do, or remove the target. 

GM's can frankly do whatever the hell they like with the spell, but
players I think should have some guidelines to avoid potentially
annoying discussions mid game. 

Mandos
/s


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mandos Mitchinson [mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz]
> Sent: Wednesday, 26 April 2006 11:21
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Curses and Objects.
> 
> 
<snip> 
> 
> Given that players can wander around cursing things to their hearts
> content it seems a good idea to apply some guidelines to this to give
> players an idea of what they can do, or remove the target. 
> 

Whole-heartedly agree. Give better guidelines, or remove the (PC-available)
ability.
I don't see a good reason for removing the ability, and assume suitable
guidelines can be worked out without much drama.
Statement of interest: My Namer has the potential for above-average ability
with Remove Curse.

> GM's can frankly do whatever the hell they like with the spell, but
> players I think should have some guidelines to avoid potentially
> annoying discussions mid game. 


I think GMs tend to do whatever they like with curses. Generally (in regard
to items) they use effects similar to what you can generate with the Greater
Curse spell (not that these effects are specified well), without bothering
much about the mechanism of how the curse got there. Sometimes they
explicitly make them susceptible to the Remove Curse ritual.

Cheers
Errol

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<TITLE>RE: [dq] Curses and Objects.</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Mandos Mitchinson [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz">mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz</A>]</F=
ONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Wednesday, 26 April 2006 11:21</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Curses and Objects.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&lt;snip&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Given that players can wander around cursing =
things to their hearts</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; content it seems a good idea to apply some =
guidelines to this to give</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; players an idea of what they can do, or remove =
the target. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Whole-heartedly agree. Give better guidelines, or =
remove the (PC-available) ability.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>I don't see a good reason for removing the ability, =
and assume suitable guidelines can be worked out without much =
drama.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Statement of interest: My Namer has the potential for =
above-average ability with Remove Curse.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; GM's can frankly do whatever the hell they like =
with the spell, but</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; players I think should have some guidelines to =
avoid potentially</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; annoying discussions mid game. </FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I think GMs tend to do whatever they like with =
curses. Generally (in regard to items) they use effects similar to what =
you can generate with the Greater Curse spell (not that these effects =
are specified well), without bothering much about the mechanism of how =
the curse got there. Sometimes they explicitly make them susceptible to =
the Remove Curse ritual.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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Quoting Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>:
> Given that players can wander around cursing things to their hearts
> content it seems a good idea to apply some guidelines to this to give
> players an idea of what they can do, or remove the target.
>
> GM's can frankly do whatever the hell they like with the spell, but
> players I think should have some guidelines to avoid potentially
> annoying discussions mid game.

For that reason, get rid of the ability to target objects, then.

Cursed objects are a part of the genre in the sense they are the sort of magic
beyond control, and operate at the meta-level of the game. They are simply a
constraint serving to narrow the range of people who can use something, or
applying an unusual penalty when something is used.

If rules exist for players to be able to use a curse on an item, then you are
paving the way for pcs to be able to use, as others have said, the ability in
ways that were not intended.

Gender change is a common, some might even say tedious, curse. Instead of
dealing with the limitations of the current system, they can curse a belt and
have it change their gender whenever they need to. Even if the curse cost a
point of EN to cast, a player might happily part with one to be able to fiddle
around with their character's more intimate doings. I don't care to speculate
why.

At this point, Curse stops being a non-damage attack spell of great versatility,
and becomes a spell of great versatility. It was never intended to be used that
way.

The question that has to be asked is if players should be able to routinely
curse items, and frankly, I can't think of a good reason. It doesn't matter
that cursed items exist in the game. If there is no general reason for players
to create them, then we don't need a rule to work out how to apply them.

The moment you write a rule/guideline, then you have have introduced a formal
method for dealing with it. Even though a DM can ignore this or any rule
entirely, the problem that you create is that of player expectation. Even if it
is only a guideline, players generate pressure on DMs to accede to their
beliefs on the way the game works.

Ultimately, cursed items are things that are not explainable by a ruleset, and
any attempt to do so makes them less of a curse and more of a formula. The game
hasn't been narrowed. It has become more of an exercise in accounting, however.

Jim


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On 4/26/06, Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz> wrote:
>
>
> Should Greater Curse be able to be used on Items?


I'm guessing that most people who would want to be able to curse an item
actually want to be able to curse an entity *via* the item -- as with the
examples of belts, swords, etc that people have listed.

As a rule a DQ target of "object" means that the object itself is affected
-- Bolt of Energy against a chair damages the chair, not the next person to
sit in it.

If Major Curse has an object target then it could (following normal use)
turn a chair into a very ugly chair... or a chamberpot... but would have no
effect on someone using the object.

Perhaps what you should be able to do with Major Curse is store it in a
magical trap. The EN cost does makes this problematic -- but it is the
closest PC based magical ability that serves the purpose you are suggesting=
.

Leave cursed items (in the gender-belt and berserking-sword) category to GM=
s
and their Shapers.

Cheers,
Martin

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On 4/26/06, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Mandos Mitchinson</b> &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz">MandosM@adhb.govt.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><s=
pan class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padd=
ing-left: 1ex;">
<br>Should Greater Curse be able to be used on Items?</blockquote><div><br>=
I'm guessing that most people who would want to be able to curse an item ac=
tually want to be able to curse an entity *via* the item -- as with the exa=
mples of belts, swords, etc that people have listed.
<br><br>As a rule a DQ target of &quot;object&quot; means that the object i=
tself is affected -- Bolt of Energy against a chair damages the chair, not =
the next person to sit in it.<br><br>If Major Curse has an object target th=
en it could (following normal use) turn a chair into a very ugly chair... o=
r a chamberpot... but would have no effect on someone using the object.
<br><br>Perhaps what you should be able to do with Major Curse is store it =
in a magical trap. The EN cost does makes this problematic -- but it is the=
 closest PC based magical ability that serves the purpose you are suggestin=
g.
<br><br>Leave cursed items (in the gender-belt and berserking-sword) catego=
ry to GMs and their Shapers.<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br></div></div>

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I've moved. :) Now living with the loverly Debbie :)

New address is 9B Rama Rd, Pt Chevalier.

New Home Phone no is: (9) 846-6795

Ta-da.

TTFN, Struan.


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What about Damnum Magnatum? I don't think this should affect objects,
whether or not Greater Curse does. (Out of flavour for college, IMAO.
But maybe Binders should get an object-only version.)

I'm worried about possible abuses - e.g. always having to tell the truth
would be a curse. A PC-created hat of compel-truth would be a powerful
item. Or a sword which causes weakness if you touch the blade.

A possible guideline could be that curses on items only affect the item
and what it does - no hat of compel truth, but you could have a sword of
doesn't-hit-elves, or a rope which is preprogramed to break under some
circumstance.

It is hard to think up guidelines which ensure malevolent objects, not
useful ones. E.g. a rope which unties when someone is half way up is
cursed, but one which unties when you give it three sharp tugs when
standing at the bottom is blessed.


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If it is hard, then don't think about. Just get rid of the ability to target
objects, and these particular problems go away.

Jim

Quoting Michael Woodhams <mdw@free.net.nz>:

> It is hard to think up guidelines which ensure malevolent objects, not
> useful ones. E.g. a rope which unties when someone is half way up is
> cursed, but one which unties when you give it three sharp tugs when
> standing at the bottom is blessed.
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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I agree with Rosemary & the rest we do need an ability to curse items.

I have NOT really played the death-curse(s) that should be on a dragon hoard -- mainly because I wanted a mechanism that was fair, but also becasue there were only two extreme positions both of which are distasteful:

[1] the curse is "merely" a death-curse and hence easily removable to guild members (especially for Lowish MA creatures such as Naga, etc)
or
[2] the MA of the curse *IS* too high (upto 30 for wights, wriaths; upto 35 for non-gold dragons) in which case EITHER the GM seems to be unreasonably arbitrary or else there is an unnatural need for some High MA curse removal device or NPC ... which unfairly unbalanaces the treasure list, depending on what GMs/NPCs a character knows or can intimidate.

However, as the spell is writ, the ability to deliberately curse items is both tempting and practical -- e.g. dwarven magic weapons that do not function in the hands of the enemy (GTN orcs, or whatever).  I'm also quite happy that the Endurance penalty only applies to curses that are cast on a person ... after all, no-one is *forced* to pick up a cursed item, given sufficient forethought or restraint.

regards, Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Mandos Mitchinson
> Sent: Wednesday, 26 April 2006 9:37 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Curses and Objects. 
> 
> 
> 
> Currently Greater Curse lists target as entity or object. 
> 
> The question is, should the object target be there. I came up 
> with some
> guidelines for the use of curse on items but on discussion 
> with GM's the
> indication was that the target was probably a mistake. 
> 
> So basic question (hopefully not sparking 5 days of 
> antagonistic debate)
> 
> 
> Should Greater Curse be able to be used on Items?
> 
> Mandos
> /s
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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You can always DA for cursed, warded or magicaly trapped. I think cursed
items are great. One of my characters collects them.
Dylan


On 4/26/06, Michael Parkinson <m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> I agree with Rosemary & the rest we do need an ability to curse items.
>
> I have NOT really played the death-curse(s) that should be on a dragon
> hoard -- mainly because I wanted a mechanism that was fair, but also beca=
sue
> there were only two extreme positions both of which are distasteful:
>
> [1] the curse is "merely" a death-curse and hence easily removable to
> guild members (especially for Lowish MA creatures such as Naga, etc)
> or
> [2] the MA of the curse *IS* too high (upto 30 for wights, wriaths; upto
> 35 for non-gold dragons) in which case EITHER the GM seems to be
> unreasonably arbitrary or else there is an unnatural need for some High M=
A
> curse removal device or NPC ... which unfairly unbalanaces the treasure
> list, depending on what GMs/NPCs a character knows or can intimidate.
>
> However, as the spell is writ, the ability to deliberately curse items is
> both tempting and practical -- e.g. dwarven magic weapons that do not
> function in the hands of the enemy (GTN orcs, or whatever).  I'm also qui=
te
> happy that the Endurance penalty only applies to curses that are cast on =
a
> person ... after all, no-one is *forced* to pick up a cursed item, given
> sufficient forethought or restraint.
>
> regards, Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> > Mandos Mitchinson
> > Sent: Wednesday, 26 April 2006 9:37 a.m.
> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> > Subject: [dq] Curses and Objects.
> >
> >
> >
> > Currently Greater Curse lists target as entity or object.
> >
> > The question is, should the object target be there. I came up
> > with some
> > guidelines for the use of curse on items but on discussion
> > with GM's the
> > indication was that the target was probably a mistake.
> >
> > So basic question (hopefully not sparking 5 days of
> > antagonistic debate)
> >
> >
> > Should Greater Curse be able to be used on Items?
> >
> > Mandos
> > /s
> >
> >
> > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> >
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>

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<div>You can always DA for cursed, warded or magicaly trapped. I think curs=
ed items are great. One of my characters collects them.</div>
<div>Dylan<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 4/26/06, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">=
Michael Parkinson</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz">m.p=
arkinson@auckland.ac.nz</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">I agree with Rosemary &amp; the =
rest we do need an ability to curse items.<br><br>I have NOT really played =
the death-curse(s) that should be on a dragon hoard -- mainly because I wan=
ted a mechanism that was fair, but also becasue there were only two extreme=
 positions both of which are distasteful:
<br><br>[1] the curse is &quot;merely&quot; a death-curse and hence easily =
removable to guild members (especially for Lowish MA creatures such as Naga=
, etc)<br>or<br>[2] the MA of the curse *IS* too high (upto 30 for wights, =
wriaths; upto 35 for non-gold dragons) in which case EITHER the GM seems to=
 be unreasonably arbitrary or else there is an unnatural need for some High=
 MA curse removal device or NPC ... which unfairly unbalanaces the treasure=
 list, depending on what GMs/NPCs a character knows or can intimidate.
<br><br>However, as the spell is writ, the ability to deliberately curse it=
ems is both tempting and practical -- e.g. dwarven magic weapons that do no=
t function in the hands of the enemy (GTN orcs, or whatever).&nbsp;&nbsp;I'=
m also quite happy that the Endurance penalty only applies to curses that a=
re cast on a person ... after all, no-one is *forced* to pick up a cursed i=
tem, given sufficient forethought or restraint.
<br><br>regards, Michael<br><br>&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>&gt; Fro=
m: <a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a> [mail=
to:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>]On Be=
half Of
<br>&gt; Mandos Mitchinson<br>&gt; Sent: Wednesday, 26 April 2006 9:37 a.m.=
<br>&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br>&gt;=
 Subject: [dq] Curses and Objects.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Currentl=
y Greater Curse lists target as entity or object.
<br>&gt;<br>&gt; The question is, should the object target be there. I came=
 up<br>&gt; with some<br>&gt; guidelines for the use of curse on items but =
on discussion<br>&gt; with GM's the<br>&gt; indication was that the target =
was probably a mistake.
<br>&gt;<br>&gt; So basic question (hopefully not sparking 5 days of<br>&gt=
; antagonistic debate)<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Should Greater Curse be able=
 to be used on Items?<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Mandos<br>&gt; /s<br>&gt;<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf=
.org.nz">dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</a> --<br>&gt;<br><br><br>-- to unsubscrib=
e notify mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-request@dq.sf=
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</a> --<br></blockquote></div><br>

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Quoting Michael Parkinson <m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz>:

> I agree with Rosemary & the rest we do need an ability to curse items.

There might be a need to have this or other abilities. There's nothing about
this that says we have to write a distinct rule. Cursed items have not been a
problem in the past.

They are assigned by DM fiat and are often removed by the fiat of the same or
another DM. The question is whether or not players should be designing and
creating cursed items. Actually, it's not a question at all, because we don't
want players designing and creating cursed items.

There might be room in the game for players to design and create items, 
however. This isn't the way to do it.
>
> I have NOT really played the death-curse(s) that should be on a dragon hoard
> -- mainly because I wanted a mechanism that was fair, but also becasue there
> were only two extreme positions both of which are distasteful:
>
> [1] the curse is "merely" a death-curse and hence easily removable to guild
> members (especially for Lowish MA creatures such as Naga, etc)
> or
> [2] the MA of the curse *IS* too high (upto 30 for wights, wriaths; upto 35
> for non-gold dragons) in which case EITHER the GM seems to be unreasonably
> arbitrary or else there is an unnatural need for some High MA curse removal
> device or NPC ... which unfairly unbalanaces the treasure list, depending on
> what GMs/NPCs a character knows or can intimidate.

There is no such thing as a curse where the MA is too high. Ignore the rules and
consider what many players actually do when faced with this kind of
problem...They speak to one or more DMs to find one who will run a game where
they can solve it.

There is, in fact, no way that I can think of to stop a player from advancing a
character if they keep working on it. Well, short of permanent death, and even
there, there's plenty of examples of pcs who have come back from that
'undiscovered country'.

We only care about curse removal as a rule if the normal exercise of the game
makes it important. So, curse removal becomes important when curses are common
enough that there needs to be a regular way of getting rid of it. In pretty
much the same way that resurrection is necessary, no matter how marvellous the
effect, simply because it's too damned tedious for it not to exist.

We have centralised resurrectors and curse removers in the Guild to reduce the
pressure on DMs generating their own in their games because 1) it means that
otherwise, curse removers and resurrectors abound as every DM would have to
populate their own version of the world with them 2) it stops the story that
the game tells from bogging down while active pcs try to put inactive pcs back
together.

Similarly, if a pc comes back from an adventure with a curse, then we want to
have the machinery to remove it if it is ordinary. However, if the curse can
only be removed by a curse remover with a MA of a prime greater than 39, then
presumably the DM assigned it in that way so that the pc has to find some
special solution. At which point, the machinery of curse removal is irrelevant.

> However, as the spell is writ, the ability to deliberately curse items is
> both tempting and practical -- e.g. dwarven magic weapons that do not
> function in the hands of the enemy (GTN orcs, or whatever).  I'm also quite
> happy that the Endurance penalty only applies to curses that are cast on a
> person ... after all, no-one is *forced* to pick up a cursed item, given
> sufficient forethought or restraint.

This is item creation by stealth. I don't have a problem with item creation, in
fact I think that we should allow players to develop their own items, but I
don't think that it's reasonable to let it happen by creating such an obvious
back door.

And, if we are going to allow item creation, whether it is by stealth or
otherwise, then we most definitely need to be considering EN costs or some
other XP cost, if for no other reason than to limit their profusion.

Jim.
>
> regards, Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> > Mandos Mitchinson
> > Sent: Wednesday, 26 April 2006 9:37 a.m.
> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> > Subject: [dq] Curses and Objects.
> >
> >
> >
> > Currently Greater Curse lists target as entity or object.
> >
> > The question is, should the object target be there. I came up
> > with some
> > guidelines for the use of curse on items but on discussion
> > with GM's the
> > indication was that the target was probably a mistake.
> >
> > So basic question (hopefully not sparking 5 days of
> > antagonistic debate)
> >
> >
> > Should Greater Curse be able to be used on Items?
> >
> > Mandos
> > /s
> >
> >
> > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> >
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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