Just a note - whatever we decide for Carzala's popn level / village distribution, large chunks of "history" and experience by PCs will need to be re-written.

There seem to be 4 commonly experienced levels of popn for Carzala:

~ 12,000-15,000
Based on the FoA map and information. There are no /few inhabitants outside the marked vilalges, and they are the 600 - 1400 indicated from the FoA. This is a frontiers setting.

~ 50,000-60,000
This is roughly the position Jono's map supports. Its also a common feeling of reasonably light development - more akin to early England than France.

~ 150,000 - 200,000
This is the rough size required to support Seagate with the Seagate map as provided. It also allows the Duke to be an international player for reasons other than the Guild.

~ 500,000 +
This is the size used for most of the Dark Circle events. Carzala couldn't support the incoming armies, we couldn't defend against the size of the undead hordes, etc without this size of popn. Mosre recently, Brastor has 3,000 in its army @ 3% enlistment, giving it 100,000, making Carzala 500,000-ish. This is also the smallest size that would supoprt the rapid dev of Newhaven to 25,000.


I think we should pick one of these levels, probably based more on flavour than demographics, and then mentally re-write history to fit it. We then re-align the numbers of all the different bits of Carzala to fit in with this view. This is actually not hard, once we get general agreement. But if we don't align the numebrs we will get silly results when the different bits interact.

-----------------------
I suggest the 50,000-60,000 size for Carzala - its post-frontier, but not densely populated. There is still plenty of wilderness between quiet little towns. Adventurers can have leases on large farms, or village cottages, or town-houses. There is even room for some social mobility as the place expands and continues to be settled - e.g. Thornton (?) around Thorn's settlement, New Haven.
-----------------------

Regards

Andrew

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On 7/13/06, DSL AK) <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz> <Andrew\Withy\\> wrote:
>
> I suggest the 50,000-60,000 size for Carzala - its post-frontier, but not
> densely populated. There is still plenty of wilderness between quiet little
> towns...


Based on Jono asking for feedback on his map, and my preference for a
60k-ish population with a frontier / early post-frontier feel to it, I've
suggested Jono make the following changes.

Cheers,
Martin.

-------------------

a) Eliminate about 1/3rd of the named villages from the map and shunt some
others a bit closer to the towns. (As a basic rule of thumb remove any that
are more than 1 hex from a town to create a more clustered appearance).

b) Change the 97 village + hamlet pairs @ 500 pop each to 65 village + 2 x
hamlet sets @ 750 pop each. Same numbers, just different distribution --
more clustered / less evenly spread. Continue to not mark or name hamlets --
GMs can then use or forget them as they desire.

c) Reduce the size of the village markers (blue dot) and size of the names.
Change the village name font from a calligraphy style to a simple Arial --
it will make the names easier to read at a smaller size and the less
decorative font helps underscore the relatively lower importance of the
villages.

Overall "a" & "b" gives the same population as before, but changes the
texture somewhat: the villages are still generally 5-10 miles apart, but
less so where they cluster around the "towns" and more so between the most
settled areas.

With "c" the visual elements / visual "clutter" on the map will also be
reduced giving a more open / less inhabited appearance.

----------------------

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On 7/13/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">DSL AK) &lt;<a href="mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">AndrewW@datacom.co.nz</a>&gt;</b> &lt;Andrew\Withy\\&gt; wrote:<div><span class="gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I suggest the 50,000-60,000 size for Carzala - its post-frontier, but not densely populated. There is still plenty of wilderness between quiet little towns...</blockquote><div><br>Based on Jono asking for feedback on his map, and my preference for a 60k-ish population with a frontier / early post-frontier feel to it, I've suggested Jono make the following changes.
<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin.<br></div></div><br>-------------------<br><br>a) Eliminate about 1/3rd of the named villages from the map and
shunt some others a bit closer to the towns. (As a basic rule of thumb
remove any that are more than 1 hex from a town to create a more
clustered appearance).
<br><br>b)
Change the 97 village + hamlet pairs @ 500 pop each to 65 village +
2 x hamlet sets @ 750 pop each. Same numbers, just different
distribution -- more clustered / less evenly spread. Continue to not
mark or name hamlets -- GMs can then use or forget them as they desire.<br><br>c)
Reduce the size of the village markers (blue dot) and size of the
names. Change the village name font from a calligraphy style to a
simple Arial -- it will make the names easier to read at a smaller size
and the less decorative font helps underscore the relatively lower
importance of the villages.
<br><br>Overall &quot;a&quot; &amp; &quot;b&quot; gives the same population as before, but
changes the texture somewhat: the villages are still generally 5-10
miles apart, but less so where they cluster around the &quot;towns&quot; and more
so between the most settled areas.
<br><br>With &quot;c&quot; the visual elements / visual &quot;clutter&quot; on the map will also be reduced giving a more open / less inhabited appearance.<br><br>----------------------<br>

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I vote ~ 50,000-60,000

The FoA 12-15k is what it was 20-25 years ago, population has mainly grown from immigration
(settle the new frontier!), population is more clumped (for safety) than it was pre-DC.
Seagate is a demographic anomaly primarily caused by the guild.
The armies fighting the DC were primarily supported by shipments of food, farriers, smiths, and
other camp followers from all over the Baronies/WK.
Most residents of Brastor and Carzala who were old enough to fight did fight at some stage during
the war.

I think 10k people re-settling Brastor is optimistic, at this stage it would only be the bold,
brave, and desperate who would take the risk.  But a high proportion of them would bear arms that
they knew how to use.

New Haven is another anomaly, mainly caused by guild members actively importing all the people
they can find from on or off plane who even think about moving to New Haven.  And supported by a
very high level of magic use.


Cheers, Stephen.


Andrew Withy (DSL AK) wrote:
> Just a note - whatever we decide for Carzala's popn level / village distribution, large chunks of
> "history" and experience by PCs will need to be re-written.
>
> There seem to be 4 commonly experienced levels of popn for Carzala:
>
> ~ 12,000-15,000
> Based on the FoA map and information. There are no /few inhabitants outside the marked vilalges,
> and they are the 600 - 1400 indicated from the FoA. This is a frontiers setting.
>
> ~ 50,000-60,000
> This is roughly the position Jono's map supports. Its also a common feeling of reasonably light
> development - more akin to early England than France.
>
> ~ 150,000 - 200,000
> This is the rough size required to support Seagate with the Seagate map as provided. It also
> allows the Duke to be an international player for reasons other than the Guild.
>
> ~ 500,000 +
> This is the size used for most of the Dark Circle events. Carzala couldn't support the incoming
> armies, we couldn't defend against the size of the undead hordes, etc without this size of popn.
> Mosre recently, Brastor has 3,000 in its army @ 3% enlistment, giving it 100,000, making Carzala
> 500,000-ish. This is also the smallest size that would supoprt the rapid dev of Newhaven to
> 25,000.
>
>
> I think we should pick one of these levels, probably based more on flavour than demographics, and
> then mentally re-write history to fit it. We then re-align the numbers of all the different bits
> of Carzala to fit in with this view. This is actually not hard, once we get general agreement. But
> if we don't align the numebrs we will get silly results when the different bits interact.
>
> -----------------------
> I suggest the 50,000-60,000 size for Carzala - its post-frontier, but not densely populated. There
> is still plenty of wilderness between quiet little towns. Adventurers can have leases on large
> farms, or village cottages, or town-houses. There is even room for some social mobility as the
> place expands and continues to be settled - e.g. Thornton (?) around Thorn's settlement, New
> Haven.
> -----------------------
>
> Regards
>
> Andrew


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On 7/13/06, Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net> wrote:
>
> I vote ~ 50,000-60,000
> The FoA 12-15k is what it was 20-25 years ago, population has mainly grown
> from immigration


Discussions about natural growth rates (usually well under 1% per annum) got
me wondering about new frontier immigration growth rates.

Although a fair bit past our historical analogue period, the US Census
people have data on-line for each 10 years from 1790 on.

The growth rates over the first 30 recorded years (1790-1820) range from
around 1% per annum for the longer settled east coast states such as
Maryland (est. 1634), and Massachusetts (est. 1620) to around 5% for Georgia
(est. 1733), to 7% for Kentucky (est. 1768).

If Carzala has grown from 12k to 50-60k over 25-30 years, that puts its
growth rate around 5 to 6%

Cheers,
Martin

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On 7/13/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Stephen Martin</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net">stephenm@castle.pointclark.net</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class="gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I vote ~ 50,000-60,000<br>The FoA 12-15k is what it was 20-25 years ago, population has mainly grown from immigration</blockquote><div><br>Discussions about natural growth rates (usually well under 1% per annum) got me wondering about new frontier immigration growth rates.
<br><br>Although a fair bit past our historical  analogue period, the US Census people have data on-line for each 10 years from 1790 on.<br><br>The growth rates over the first 30 recorded years (1790-1820) range from around 1% per annum for the longer settled east coast states such as Maryland (est. 1634), and Massachusetts (est. 1620) to around 5% for Georgia (est. 1733), to 7% for Kentucky (est. 1768).
<br><br>If Carzala has grown from 12k to 50-60k over 25-30 years, that puts its growth rate around 5 to 6%<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br></div></div>

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I like the 50- 60k figure.

I also like Ian's suggestion that we vary farming density as we radiate =
out from Seagate, if this means we delete a few villages to make the =
numbers work. *shrug* =20

Ian's suggestion means that over all there would be even more wilderness =
as once you get 5 miles out from Seagate the population would  be =
proportionally less than a more even spread, even if it was concentrated =
around the towns.

Wrote: Andrew Withy=20
-----------------------
I suggest the 50,000-60,000 size for Carzala - its post-frontier, but =
not densely populated. There is still plenty of wilderness between quiet =
little towns. Adventurers can have leases on large farms, or village =
cottages, or town-houses. There is even room for some social mobility as =
the place expands and continues to be settled - e.g. Thornton (?) around =
Thorn's settlement, New Haven.
-----------------------

It will be called Thorns Landing, She will need some sort of harbor to =
sail to cargos to and from New Haven and Seagate after all, and there is =
a whole bay to fish in.
It's in plan, the 5 to 10 year plan, a more natural not so forced =
progression as New Haven (Gods Willing).



Helen

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charset=3Dwindows-1250">
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I like the 50- 60k figure.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I also like Ian's suggestion that we =
vary farming=20
density as we radiate out from Seagate, if this means we delete a few =
villages=20
to make the numbers work. *shrug*&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ian's suggestion means that over all =
there would be=20
even more wilderness as once you get 5 miles out from Seagate the =
population=20
would &nbsp;be proportionally less than a more even spread, even if it =
was=20
concentrated around the towns.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wrote:&nbsp;Andrew Withy </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>-----------------------<BR>I suggest =
the=20
50,000-60,000 size for Carzala - its post-frontier, but not densely =
populated.=20
There is still plenty of wilderness between quiet little towns. =
Adventurers can=20
have leases on large farms, or village cottages, or town-houses. There =
is even=20
room for some social mobility as the place expands and continues to be =
settled -=20
e.g. Thornton (?) around Thorn's settlement, New=20
Haven.<BR>-----------------------<BR><BR>It will be called&nbsp;Thorns=20
Landing,&nbsp;She will need some sort of harbor to sail to cargos to and =
from=20
New Haven and Seagate after all, and there is a whole bay to fish=20
in.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It's in plan, the 5 to 10 year plan, a =
more natural=20
not so forced progression as New Haven (Gods Willing).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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thanks,
I also like the recent posts by you Martin.

I have looked at the maps now, and my suggestion would result in a total of 36 centres (much lower than jono's 90) plus the trade towns.

I have too much time on my hands here, being 12 hours out, and will post what i think the result would be if my suggestion was adopted (so yo can see if it still 'works' <shrug>).

Ian

---- Helen Saggers <helen@owbn.net.nz> wrote: 
> I like the 50- 60k figure.
> 
> I also like Ian's suggestion that we vary farming density as we radiate out from Seagate, if this means we delete a few villages to make the numbers work. *shrug*  
> 
> Ian's suggestion means that over all there would be even more wilderness as once you get 5 miles out from Seagate the population would  be proportionally less than a more even spread, even if it was concentrated around the towns.
> 
> Wrote: Andrew Withy 
> -----------------------
> I suggest the 50,000-60,000 size for Carzala - its post-frontier, but not densely populated. There is still plenty of wilderness between quiet little towns. Adventurers can have leases on large farms, or village cottages, or town-houses. There is even room for some social mobility as the place expands and continues to be settled - e.g. Thornton (?) around Thorn's settlement, New Haven.
> -----------------------
> 
> It will be called Thorns Landing, She will need some sort of harbor to sail to cargos to and from New Haven and Seagate after all, and there is a whole bay to fish in.
> It's in plan, the 5 to 10 year plan, a more natural not so forced progression as New Haven (Gods Willing).
> 
> 
> 
> Helen


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