SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?
FromJonathan Bean
DateMon, 27 Aug 2007 09:26:08 +1200
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Hi all,

=20

Errol asked:

> The original proposed method of 'buying off' of their mods will cost
the giant 4.3 times as much as the elf.=20

> Is this the intent? If so, why?

=20

I wanted a simple system.

I wanted something that is constant and did not change or need reference
to a table in the rule book for GMs.

I wanted to make sure that the top end remains as slow and hard as it is
now, while having the 'lighter' RM falling away more quickly.

I don't care that is not 100% balanced as at the moment these races
already pay some experience points to their RM, so any gain is fine with
me.

=20

If others would like to put forward a rule change for voting on at the
next GMs meeting, that is fine with me. It could be based on the one I
put forward or changed or whatever, I don't mind.

I have put forward this one as I see it as addressing some issues while
not being perfect, but better than we currently have.

If we have more that one item on the rules agenda for voting on at the
coming GM's meeting we will sort it out at the time.

=20

Kind regards,

Jonathan Bean
Sales Executive

M

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________________________________

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Errol Cavit
Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2007 4:47 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?

=20

I'm not sure if people are realising the difference in cost currently
vs. the cost to get to a mod of 1.0. I certainly didn't until I'd been
thinking about it a bit.

=20

Currently a giant 'pays' 33,333 EP per 100,000 EP earned for the
pleasure of being a giant.

An elf pays 16,667 per 100,000, that is, half as much.

This effects both of them throughout their career.

=20

The original proposed method of 'buying off' of their mods will cost the
giant 4.3 times as much as the elf.=20

=20

Is this the intent? If so, why?

=20

Bernard's suggestion is closer to the current ratio (the giant pays 2.4x
the elf).

=20

If we want the cost to remove the mods to reflect the relative cost that
is being paid now, then all we need to say is 'when you have earned
x,000 EP, your racial mod goes to 1.0'.

=20

If x is 300, a giant has paid (3 x 33,333 =3D 100,000) at this stage, =
and
an elf (3 x 16,667 =3D 50,000).

=20

By the way, elves currently pay 1.8x what dwarves/orcs/halflings do,
buying off will take 2.8x (2.5x under Bernard).

=20

Cheers

Errol

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On
Behalf Of Bernard Hoggins
	Sent: Saturday, 25 August 2007 21:55
	To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
	Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?

	Looking at the maths people are putting forwards for this idea,
currently it seems to be proposed that a Giant will take somewhere in
the region of 1 million to 1.5 million raw EP to pay off their racial
modifier.   Taking the standard EP awards that I see this means we are
expecting the racial modifier to be paid off in something like 40-60
adventures.
=09
	While this doesn't sound too excessive, many people only play a
given character once or maybe twice a year, so we are talking something
like 20 years to pay off the EP modifier.  To me this feels to be
excessivly long term, even for a long running campaign.
=09
	Keeping Jono's simplicity system in mind, I'd like to propose a
stepped system, which will reduce this amount somewhat. (taking into
account that low level adventures award perhaps 1/2 the EP of high level
adventures this will not be as much of a speed difference as the numbers
seem to indicate)
=09
	1.5 to 1.4: 50,000 raw
	1.4 to 1.3: 100,000 raw
	1.3 to 1.2: 150,000 raw
	1.2 to 1.1: 200,000 raw
	1.1 to 1.0: 250,000 raw
=09
	The net result will be that a high em race will begin to get a
lower EM fairly early on, but to get from 1.1 to 1.0 will take a while.
	Summing this up, a Giant would need a total of 750,000 ep raw,
while a dwarf would need 250,000 raw to get rid of their racial mod
totally.  Bringing it more into the sensible lifespan of a character.
=09
	For simplicities sake, I'd apply the change in EP modifier on
the adventure they make the cap in raw EP, (E.G Bob the Dwarf has earned
230,000 ep, then gets 25,000 on an adventure, as this will take him to
over 250,000 ep total, he then uses the 1.0 modifier for that
adventure), rather than trying to break it on exactly 250,000 e.t.c.
since that will cause fractional maths.  Existing characters should be
able to summarise their raw EP fairly easily to work out where they
should be now.
=09
	I'm also of the opinion that backdating the extra ep will be
very difficult to calculate accuratly across the entire board, since it
will need a GM to sign off on each and every backdating to make sure
maths errors haven't crept into the system somewhere, as the formula to
calculate across up to 5 variable steps isn't going to be the simplest.
=09
	Bernard
=09
=09
	From Bernard Hoggins
	nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk=20

=09
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Hi =
all,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Errol =
asked:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>&gt; The original proposed method =
of
'buying off' of their mods will cost the giant 4.3 times&nbsp;as much as =
the
elf. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>&gt; Is this the intent? If so, =
why?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I wanted a simple =
system.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I wanted something that is constant =
and did
not change or need reference to a table in the rule book for =
GMs.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I wanted to make sure that the top =
end
remains as slow and hard as it is now, while having the =
&#8216;lighter&#8217;
RM falling away more quickly.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I don&#8217;t care that is not 100%
balanced as at the moment these races already pay some experience points =
to
their RM, so any gain is fine with me.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If others would like to put forward =
a rule
change for voting on at the next GMs meeting, that is fine with me. It =
could be
based on the one I put forward or changed or whatever, I don&#8217;t =
mind.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I have put forward this one as I =
see it as
addressing some issues while not being perfect, but better than we =
currently
have.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If we have more that one item on =
the rules
agenda for voting on at the coming GM&#8217;s meeting we will sort it =
out at
the time.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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Roman"><span
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</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Errol Cavit<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, 26 August =
2007 4:47
p.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] Racial =
Modifiers
- Rule change?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I'm not sure if people are =
realising the
difference in cost currently vs. the cost to get to a mod of 1.0. I =
certainly
didn't until I'd been thinking about it a =
bit.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Currently a giant 'pays' 33,333 EP =
per
100,000 EP earned for the pleasure of being a =
giant.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>An elf pays 16,667 per 100,000, =
that is,
half as much.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>This effects both of them =
throughout their
career.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>The original proposed method of =
'buying
off' of their mods will cost the giant 4.3 times&nbsp;as much as the =
elf. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Is this the intent? If so, =
why?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Bernard's suggestion is closer to =
the
current ratio (the giant pays 2.4x the =
elf).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>If we want the cost to remove the =
mods to
reflect the relative cost that is being paid now, then all we need to =
say is
'when you have earned x,000 EP, your racial mod goes to =
1.0'.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>If x is 300, a giant has paid (3 x =
33,333
=3D 100,000) at this stage, and an elf (3 x 16,667 =3D =
50,000).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>By the way, elves currently pay =
1.8x what
dwarves/orcs/halflings do, buying off will take 2.8x (2.5x under =
Bernard).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Cheers</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Errol</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original =
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of </span></b>Bernard
Hoggins<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, 25 August =
2007
21:55<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] Racial =
Modifiers
- Rule change?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Looking at the maths people are putting forwards for this idea,
currently it seems to be proposed that a Giant will take somewhere in =
the
region of 1 million to 1.5 million raw EP to pay off their racial
modifier.&nbsp;&nbsp; Taking the standard EP awards that I see this =
means we
are expecting the racial modifier to be paid off in something like 40-60 =
adventures.<br>
<br>
While this doesn't sound too excessive, many people only play a given =
character
once or maybe twice a year, so we are talking something like 20 years to =
pay
off the EP modifier.&nbsp; To me this feels to be excessivly long term, =
even
for a long running campaign.<br>
<br>
Keeping Jono's simplicity system in mind, I'd like to propose a stepped =
system,
which will reduce this amount somewhat. (taking into account that low =
level
adventures award perhaps 1/2 the EP of high level adventures this will =
not be
as much of a speed difference as the numbers seem to indicate)<br>
<br>
1.5 to 1.4: 50,000 raw<br>
1.4 to 1.3: 100,000 raw<br>
1.3 to 1.2: 150,000 raw<br>
1.2 to 1.1: 200,000 raw<br>
1.1 to 1.0: 250,000 raw<br>
<br>
The net result will be that a high em race will begin to get a lower EM =
fairly
early on, but to get from 1.1 to 1.0 will take a while.<br>
Summing this up, a Giant would need a total of 750,000 ep raw, while a =
dwarf
would need 250,000 raw to get rid of their racial mod totally.&nbsp; =
Bringing
it more into the sensible lifespan of a character.<br>
<br>
For simplicities sake, I'd apply the change in EP modifier on the =
adventure
they make the cap in raw EP, (E.G Bob the Dwarf has earned 230,000 ep, =
then
gets 25,000 on an adventure, as this will take him to over 250,000 ep =
total, he
then uses the 1.0 modifier for that adventure), rather than trying to =
break it
on exactly 250,000 e.t.c. since that will cause fractional maths.&nbsp;
Existing characters should be able to summarise their raw EP fairly =
easily to
work out where they should be now.<br>
<br>
I'm also of the opinion that backdating the extra ep will be very =
difficult to
calculate accuratly across the entire board, since it will need a GM to =
sign
off on each and every backdating to make sure maths errors haven't crept =
into
the system somewhere, as the formula to calculate across up to 5 =
variable steps
isn't going to be the simplest.<br>
<br>
Bernard<br>
<br>
<br>
From Bernard Hoggins<br>
nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?
FromStephen Martin
DateMon, 27 Aug 2007 09:29:22 +1200 (NZST)
While a graduated reduction is nice, especially for those on high EMs.
I like the simplicity and balance of Errol's idea.

500,000xp seems a good number.  Approx. 30 adventures, 10-15 years of playing.

Cheers, Stephen.

Errol Cavit wrote:
>
> If we want the cost to remove the mods to reflect the relative cost that is
> being paid now, then all we need to say is 'when you have earned x,000 EP,
> your racial mod goes to 1.0'.
>
> If x is 300, a giant has paid (3 x 33,333 = 100,000) at this stage, and an
> elf (3 x 16,667 = 50,000).
>
> Cheers
> Errol


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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?
FromMichael Woodhams
DateMon, 27 Aug 2007 11:16:41 +1200
On Sun, 2007-08-26 at 16:47, Errol Cavit wrote:
> The original proposed method of 'buying off' of their mods will cost
> the giant 4.3 times as much as the elf. 
>  
> Is this the intent? If so, why?

I can't comment on intent, but I will argue that this is a feature, not
a bug.

I'll present an analogy: Three people,  Mr Human,  Ms Elf and Dr Giant 
each have $200,000 and are looking to buy a house. Mr Human buys a
$200,000 house, and needs no mortgage. Ms Elf buys a $600,000 house,
gets a $400,000 mortage, and by the time shes paid it off, has paid
$800,000 to the bank. Dr Giant buys a $1,000,000 house, with an $800,000
mortgage. By the time he's paid it off, he's paid $3,200,000 to the
bank.

While Dr Giant had only twice the mortgage that Ms Elf had, he pays four
times as much to the bank. This is reasonable - he was paying interest
on (two times) larger loan and for a (perhaps two times) longer time.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?
FromStephen Martin
DateMon, 27 Aug 2007 11:26:14 +1200 (NZST)
Sorry I was a bit brief before, to be a little more clear...

What Errol pointed out was that none of the previous proposals had a 'XP cost for being race x'
proportionate to their EM.

What he suggested was not to gradually reduce the EM, but to go from full to 1.0 when you reach
the designated magic number.

For Example, with 500,000 as the magic number:

Rule: When a non-human character has earned more than 500,000xp (raw)
then their EM become 1.0.

Cost of being non-human:
Giants 167,000
Shapechangers 143,000
Elves 83,000
Others (1.1) 45,000

It's simple in that there is one number for everyone, either you're over
the magic threshold or
you're not.
And the cost is directly proportional to the size of the EM.


Hope that is a bit clearer.

Cheers, Stephen.


Stephen Martin wrote:
> While a graduated reduction is nice, especially for those on high EMs.
> I like the simplicity and balance of Errol's idea.
>
> 500,000xp seems a good number.  Approx. 30 adventures, 10-15 years of playing.
>
> Cheers, Stephen.
>
> Errol Cavit wrote:
>>
>> If we want the cost to remove the mods to reflect the relative cost that is
>> being paid now, then all we need to say is 'when you have earned x,000 EP,
>> your racial mod goes to 1.0'.
>>
>> If x is 300, a giant has paid (3 x 33,333 = 100,000) at this stage, and an
>> elf (3 x 16,667 = 50,000).
>>
>> Cheers
>> Errol


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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?
FromErrol Cavit
DateMon, 27 Aug 2007 12:18:34 +1200
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this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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We're talking about a rare event that affects giants once every 10 or so
adventures, and other non-humans once or twice their career. I don't think
expecting the GM to read the paragraph in the rules that covers it (when the
ranking sheet shows that the racial mod has changed) is unreasonable or
onerous.
 
There is 'not 100% balanced', then there is obviously unbalanced (in
comparision to the current relationship between the non-human races). You
haven't provided any justification for this, other than 'the simple system
that I've proposed requires it to be so' and 'it feels right to me'.
There may well be a reasonable justification for this, but it hasn't been
presented so far (what Micheal recently posted shows a possible path of
reasoning, which needs concrete examples and comparisons).
 
This is an important issue that affects all players, and should be carefully
thought through. It isn't simple because the benefits and costs vary in
nature - how do you value a discount on an optional Skill, for instance?
 
Cheers
Errol
 

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Jonathan Bean
Sent: Monday, 27 August 2007 09:26
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?



Hi all,

 

Errol asked:

> The original proposed method of 'buying off' of their mods will cost the
giant 4.3 times as much as the elf. 

> Is this the intent? If so, why?

 

I wanted a simple system.

I wanted something that is constant and did not change or need reference to
a table in the rule book for GMs.

I wanted to make sure that the top end remains as slow and hard as it is
now, while having the 'lighter' RM falling away more quickly.

I don't care that is not 100% balanced as at the moment these races already
pay some experience points to their RM, so any gain is fine with me.

 

If others would like to put forward a rule change for voting on at the next
GMs meeting, that is fine with me. It could be based on the one I put
forward or changed or whatever, I don't mind.

I have put forward this one as I see it as addressing some issues while not
being perfect, but better than we currently have.

If we have more that one item on the rules agenda for voting on at the
coming GM's meeting we will sort it out at the time.

 

Kind regards,

Jonathan Bean


 

 

 


  _____  


From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Errol Cavit
Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2007 4:47 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?

 

I'm not sure if people are realising the difference in cost currently vs.
the cost to get to a mod of 1.0. I certainly didn't until I'd been thinking
about it a bit.

 

Currently a giant 'pays' 33,333 EP per 100,000 EP earned for the pleasure of
being a giant.

An elf pays 16,667 per 100,000, that is, half as much.

This effects both of them throughout their career.

 

The original proposed method of 'buying off' of their mods will cost the
giant 4.3 times as much as the elf. 

 

Is this the intent? If so, why?

 

Bernard's suggestion is closer to the current ratio (the giant pays 2.4x the
elf).

 

If we want the cost to remove the mods to reflect the relative cost that is
being paid now, then all we need to say is 'when you have earned x,000 EP,
your racial mod goes to 1.0'.

 

If x is 300, a giant has paid (3 x 33,333 = 100,000) at this stage, and an
elf (3 x 16,667 = 50,000).

 

By the way, elves currently pay 1.8x what dwarves/orcs/halflings do, buying
off will take 2.8x (2.5x under Bernard).

 

Cheers

Errol

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Bernard Hoggins
Sent: Saturday, 25 August 2007 21:55
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?

Looking at the maths people are putting forwards for this idea, currently it
seems to be proposed that a Giant will take somewhere in the region of 1
million to 1.5 million raw EP to pay off their racial modifier.   Taking the
standard EP awards that I see this means we are expecting the racial
modifier to be paid off in something like 40-60 adventures.

While this doesn't sound too excessive, many people only play a given
character once or maybe twice a year, so we are talking something like 20
years to pay off the EP modifier.  To me this feels to be excessivly long
term, even for a long running campaign.

Keeping Jono's simplicity system in mind, I'd like to propose a stepped
system, which will reduce this amount somewhat. (taking into account that
low level adventures award perhaps 1/2 the EP of high level adventures this
will not be as much of a speed difference as the numbers seem to indicate)

1.5 to 1.4: 50,000 raw
1.4 to 1.3: 100,000 raw
1.3 to 1.2: 150,000 raw
1.2 to 1.1: 200,000 raw
1.1 to 1.0: 250,000 raw

The net result will be that a high em race will begin to get a lower EM
fairly early on, but to get from 1.1 to 1.0 will take a while.
Summing this up, a Giant would need a total of 750,000 ep raw, while a dwarf
would need 250,000 raw to get rid of their racial mod totally.  Bringing it
more into the sensible lifespan of a character.

For simplicities sake, I'd apply the change in EP modifier on the adventure
they make the cap in raw EP, (E.G Bob the Dwarf has earned 230,000 ep, then
gets 25,000 on an adventure, as this will take him to over 250,000 ep total,
he then uses the 1.0 modifier for that adventure), rather than trying to
break it on exactly 250,000 e.t.c. since that will cause fractional maths.
Existing characters should be able to summarise their raw EP fairly easily
to work out where they should be now.

I'm also of the opinion that backdating the extra ep will be very difficult
to calculate accuratly across the entire board, since it will need a GM to
sign off on each and every backdating to make sure maths errors haven't
crept into the system somewhere, as the formula to calculate across up to 5
variable steps isn't going to be the simplest.

Bernard


From Bernard Hoggins
nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk 


  _____  


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<BODY lang=3DEN-US vLink=3Dblue link=3Dblue>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D945084422-26082007>We're=20
talking about a rare event that affects giants once every 10 or so =
adventures,=20
and other non-humans once or twice their career. I don't think =
expecting the GM=20
to read the paragraph in the rules that covers it (when the ranking =
sheet shows=20
that the racial mod has changed) is unreasonable or =
onerous.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D945084422-26082007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D945084422-26082007>There=20
is 'not 100% balanced', then there is obviously unbalanced (in =
comparision to=20
the current relationship between the non-human races). You haven't =
provided any=20
justification for this, other than 'the simple system that I've =
proposed=20
requires it to be so' and 'it feels right to me'.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D945084422-26082007>There=20
may well be a reasonable justification for this, but it hasn't been =
presented so=20
far (what Micheal recently posted shows a possible path of reasoning, =
which=20
needs concrete examples and comparisons).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D945084422-26082007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D945084422-26082007>This=20
is an important issue that affects all players, and should be carefully =
thought=20
through. It isn't simple because the benefits and costs vary in nature =
- how do=20
you value a discount on an optional Skill, for =
instance?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D945084422-26082007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D945084422-26082007>Cheers</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D945084422-26082007>Errol</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D945084422-26082007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of</B> Jonathan=20
  Bean<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, 27 August 2007 09:26<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule=20
  change?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DSection1>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi=20
  all,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Errol=20
  asked:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&gt; The =
original=20
  proposed method of 'buying off' of their mods will cost the giant 4.3 =

  times&nbsp;as much as the elf. </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&gt; Is =
this the=20
  intent? If so, why?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I wanted a =
simple=20
  system.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I wanted =
something=20
  that is constant and did not change or need reference to a table in =
the rule=20
  book for GMs.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I wanted =
to make sure=20
  that the top end remains as slow and hard as it is now, while having =
the=20
  'lighter' RM falling away more quickly.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I don't =
care that is=20
  not 100% balanced as at the moment these races already pay some =
experience=20
  points to their RM, so any gain is fine with =
me.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If others =
would like=20
  to put forward a rule change for voting on at the next GMs meeting, =
that is=20
  fine with me. It could be based on the one I put forward or changed =
or=20
  whatever, I don't mind.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I have put =
forward=20
  this one as I see it as addressing some issues while not being =
perfect, but=20
  better than we currently have.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If we have =
more that=20
  one item on the rules agenda for voting on at the coming GM's meeting =
we will=20
  sort it out at the time.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Kind=20
  regards,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal=20
  style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: =
auto"><st1:PersonName=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-POSITION: left bottom; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: =
url(res://ietag.dll/#34/#1001); BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat-x"=20
  tabIndex=3D0 w:st=3D"on"><STRONG><B><FONT face=3D"Trebuchet MS" =
color=3D#52717f=20
  size=3D3><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #52717f; FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet =
MS'">Jonathan=20
  Bean</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG></st1:PersonName><FONT =
color=3Dnavy><SPAN=20
  lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D"COLOR: navy"><BR></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dnavy =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: =
navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dnavy =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: =
navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" =
align=3Dcenter><FONT=20
  face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2>
  </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Tahoma">=20
  dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Errol =
Cavit<BR><B><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, 26 August 2007 =
4:47=20
  p.m.<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> =
<st1:PersonName=20
  w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [dq] Racial =
Modifiers - Rule=20
  change?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I'm not =
sure if=20
  people are realising the difference in cost currently vs. the cost to =
get to a=20
  mod of 1.0. I certainly didn't until I'd been thinking about it a=20
  bit.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Currently =
a giant=20
  'pays' 33,333 EP per 100,000 EP earned for the pleasure of being a=20
  giant.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">An elf =
pays 16,667=20
  per 100,000, that is, half as =
much.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This =
effects both of=20
  them throughout their career.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The =
original proposed=20
  method of 'buying off' of their mods will cost the giant 4.3 =
times&nbsp;as=20
  much as the elf. </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Is this =
the intent?=20
  If so, why?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Bernard's =
suggestion=20
  is closer to the current ratio (the giant pays 2.4x the=20
  elf).</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If we want =
the cost=20
  to remove the mods to reflect the relative cost that is being paid =
now, then=20
  all we need to say is 'when you have earned x,000 EP, your racial mod =
goes to=20
  1.0'.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If x is =
300, a giant=20
  has paid (3 x 33,333 =3D 100,000) at this stage, and an elf (3 x =
16,667 =3D=20
  50,000).</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">By the =
way, elves=20
  currently pay 1.8x what dwarves/orcs/halflings do, buying off will =
take 2.8x=20
  (2.5x under Bernard).</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Cheers</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Errol</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
    size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Tahoma">-----Original=20
    Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
bold">From:</SPAN></B>=20
    dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Bernard=20
    Hoggins<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> =
Saturday, 25=20
    August 2007 21:55<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
bold">To:</SPAN></B>=20
    <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [dq] Racial =
Modifiers -=20
    Rule change?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Looking at the maths people are putting =
forwards for=20
    this idea, currently it seems to be proposed that a Giant will take =

    somewhere in the region of 1 million to 1.5 million raw EP to pay =
off their=20
    racial modifier.&nbsp;&nbsp; Taking the standard EP awards that I =
see this=20
    means we are expecting the racial modifier to be paid off in =
something like=20
    40-60 adventures.<BR><BR>While this doesn't sound too excessive, =
many people=20
    only play a given character once or maybe twice a year, so we are =
talking=20
    something like 20 years to pay off the EP modifier.&nbsp; To me =
this feels=20
    to be excessivly long term, even for a long running =
campaign.<BR><BR>Keeping=20
    Jono's simplicity system in mind, I'd like to propose a stepped =
system,=20
    which will reduce this amount somewhat. (taking into account that =
low level=20
    adventures award perhaps 1/2 the EP of high level adventures this =
will not=20
    be as much of a speed difference as the numbers seem to =
indicate)<BR><BR>1.5=20
    to 1.4: 50,000 raw<BR>1.4 to 1.3: 100,000 raw<BR>1.3 to 1.2: =
150,000=20
    raw<BR>1.2 to 1.1: 200,000 raw<BR>1.1 to 1.0: 250,000 =
raw<BR><BR>The net=20
    result will be that a high em race will begin to get a lower EM =
fairly early=20
    on, but to get from 1.1 to 1.0 will take a while.<BR>Summing this =
up, a=20
    Giant would need a total of 750,000 ep raw, while a dwarf would =
need 250,000=20
    raw to get rid of their racial mod totally.&nbsp; Bringing it more =
into the=20
    sensible lifespan of a character.<BR><BR>For simplicities sake, I'd =
apply=20
    the change in EP modifier on the adventure they make the cap in raw =
EP, (E.G=20
    Bob the Dwarf has earned 230,000 ep, then gets 25,000 on an =
adventure, as=20
    this will take him to over 250,000 ep total, he then uses the 1.0 =
modifier=20
    for that adventure), rather than trying to break it on exactly =
250,000=20
    e.t.c. since that will cause fractional maths.&nbsp; Existing =
characters=20
    should be able to summarise their raw EP fairly easily to work out =
where=20
    they should be now.<BR><BR>I'm also of the opinion that backdating =
the extra=20
    ep will be very difficult to calculate accuratly across the entire =
board,=20
    since it will need a GM to sign off on each and every backdating to =
make=20
    sure maths errors haven't crept into the system somewhere, as the =
formula to=20
    calculate across up to 5 variable steps isn't going to be the=20
    simplest.<BR><BR>Bernard<BR><BR><BR>From Bernard=20
    Hoggins<BR>nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" =
align=3Dcenter><FONT=20
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    </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Feel safe with award winning spam =
protection on=20
    Yahoo!7 Mail. <A=20
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    target=3D_blank>Find out more</A>.=20
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-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?
FromJohanna and Hamish
DateMon, 27 Aug 2007 16:23:11 +1200
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OK - so there is not soo much agreement as it seemed to me.. I am not sure
things need to be justified in the way you suggest Errol.  While studying
Philosophy we spent the whole first year hearing and creating arguments for
and against the existence of god.  After a while I realised that you can
argue something which is impossible to either prove or disprove very
convincingly and as complicatedly as you like however it is still impossible
to prove or disprove.  This dose not stop some people from knowing that god
defiantly exists and going to church and some others from being atheists.   

 

I think quite a few things in DQ are like this because we have a collective
imagined world.  So yes I do think that the most important criteria is that
'it feels about right to most of us' it probably does not really matter if
different people justify that 'it feels about right' entirely different
ways.   

 

Anyway at the risk of being a bit of a slut now I like Stephens Idea - which
I think is also Errol's.

 

500,000 a magic number.  Super elegant, super simple, ratio wise.  Best
solution to date IMV. 

 

Cheers Hamish 

 

 

We're talking about a rare event that affects giants once every 10 or so
adventures, and other non-humans once or twice their career. I don't think
expecting the GM to read the paragraph in the rules that covers it (when the
ranking sheet shows that the racial mod has changed) is unreasonable or
onerous.

 

There is 'not 100% balanced', then there is obviously unbalanced (in
comparision to the current relationship between the non-human races). You
haven't provided any justification for this, other than 'the simple system
that I've proposed requires it to be so' and 'it feels right to me'.

There may well be a reasonable justification for this, but it hasn't been
presented so far (what Micheal recently posted shows a possible path of
reasoning, which needs concrete examples and comparisons).

 

This is an important issue that affects all players, and should be carefully
thought through. It isn't simple because the benefits and costs vary in
nature - how do you value a discount on an optional Skill, for instance?

 

Cheers

Errol

 

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Jonathan Bean
Sent: Monday, 27 August 2007 09:26
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?

Hi all,

 

Errol asked:

> The original proposed method of 'buying off' of their mods will cost the
giant 4.3 times as much as the elf. 

> Is this the intent? If so, why?

 

I wanted a simple system.

I wanted something that is constant and did not change or need reference to
a table in the rule book for GMs.

I wanted to make sure that the top end remains as slow and hard as it is
now, while having the 'lighter' RM falling away more quickly.

I don't care that is not 100% balanced as at the moment these races already
pay some experience points to their RM, so any gain is fine with me.

 

If others would like to put forward a rule change for voting on at the next
GMs meeting, that is fine with me. It could be based on the one I put
forward or changed or whatever, I don't mind.

I have put forward this one as I see it as addressing some issues while not
being perfect, but better than we currently have.

If we have more that one item on the rules agenda for voting on at the
coming GM's meeting we will sort it out at the time.

 

Kind regards,

Jonathan Bean

 

 

 


  _____  


From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Errol Cavit
Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2007 4:47 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?

 

I'm not sure if people are realising the difference in cost currently vs.
the cost to get to a mod of 1.0. I certainly didn't until I'd been thinking
about it a bit.

 

Currently a giant 'pays' 33,333 EP per 100,000 EP earned for the pleasure of
being a giant.

An elf pays 16,667 per 100,000, that is, half as much.

This effects both of them throughout their career.

 

The original proposed method of 'buying off' of their mods will cost the
giant 4.3 times as much as the elf. 

 

Is this the intent? If so, why?

 

Bernard's suggestion is closer to the current ratio (the giant pays 2.4x the
elf).

 

If we want the cost to remove the mods to reflect the relative cost that is
being paid now, then all we need to say is 'when you have earned x,000 EP,
your racial mod goes to 1.0'.

 

If x is 300, a giant has paid (3 x 33,333 = 100,000) at this stage, and an
elf (3 x 16,667 = 50,000).

 

By the way, elves currently pay 1.8x what dwarves/orcs/halflings do, buying
off will take 2.8x (2.5x under Bernard).

 

Cheers

Errol

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Bernard Hoggins
Sent: Saturday, 25 August 2007 21:55
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?

Looking at the maths people are putting forwards for this idea, currently it
seems to be proposed that a Giant will take somewhere in the region of 1
million to 1.5 million raw EP to pay off their racial modifier.   Taking the
standard EP awards that I see this means we are expecting the racial
modifier to be paid off in something like 40-60 adventures.

While this doesn't sound too excessive, many people only play a given
character once or maybe twice a year, so we are talking something like 20
years to pay off the EP modifier.  To me this feels to be excessivly long
term, even for a long running campaign.

Keeping Jono's simplicity system in mind, I'd like to propose a stepped
system, which will reduce this amount somewhat. (taking into account that
low level adventures award perhaps 1/2 the EP of high level adventures this
will not be as much of a speed difference as the numbers seem to indicate)

1.5 to 1.4: 50,000 raw
1.4 to 1.3: 100,000 raw
1.3 to 1.2: 150,000 raw
1.2 to 1.1: 200,000 raw
1.1 to 1.0: 250,000 raw

The net result will be that a high em race will begin to get a lower EM
fairly early on, but to get from 1.1 to 1.0 will take a while.
Summing this up, a Giant would need a total of 750,000 ep raw, while a dwarf
would need 250,000 raw to get rid of their racial mod totally.  Bringing it
more into the sensible lifespan of a character.

For simplicities sake, I'd apply the change in EP modifier on the adventure
they make the cap in raw EP, (E.G Bob the Dwarf has earned 230,000 ep, then
gets 25,000 on an adventure, as this will take him to over 250,000 ep total,
he then uses the 1.0 modifier for that adventure), rather than trying to
break it on exactly 250,000 e.t.c. since that will cause fractional maths.
Existing characters should be able to summarise their raw EP fairly easily
to work out where they should be now.

I'm also of the opinion that backdating the extra ep will be very difficult
to calculate accuratly across the entire board, since it will need a GM to
sign off on each and every backdating to make sure maths errors haven't
crept into the system somewhere, as the formula to calculate across up to 5
variable steps isn't going to be the simplest.

Bernard


From Bernard Hoggins
nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk 


  _____  


Feel safe with award winning spam protection on Yahoo!7 Mail. Find out more
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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>OK &#8211; so there is not soo much
agreement as it seemed to me&#8230;. I am not sure things need to be =
justified in
the way you suggest Errol. &nbsp;While studying Philosophy we spent the =
whole first
year hearing and creating arguments for and against the existence of =
god.&nbsp; After
a while I realised that you can argue something which is impossible to =
either prove
or disprove very convincingly and as complicatedly as you like however =
it is
still impossible to prove or disprove. &nbsp;This dose not stop some =
people from
knowing that god defiantly exists and going to church and some others =
from
being atheists. &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I think quite a few things in DQ =
are like
this because we have a collective imagined world.&nbsp; So yes I do =
think that the
most important criteria is that &#8216;it feels about right to most of =
us&#8217;
it probably does not really matter if different people justify that =
&#8216;it
feels about right&#8217; entirely different ways. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Anyway at the risk of being a bit =
of a
slut now I like Stephens Idea &#8211; which I think is also =
Errol&#8217;s.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>500,000 a magic number.&nbsp; Super =
elegant,
super simple, ratio wise. &nbsp;Best solution to date IMV. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Cheers Hamish =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>We're talking about a rare event =
that
affects giants once every 10 or so adventures, and other non-humans once =
or
twice their career. I don't think expecting the GM to read the paragraph =
in the
rules that covers it (when the ranking sheet shows that the racial mod =
has
changed) is unreasonable or onerous.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>There is 'not 100% balanced', then =
there
is obviously unbalanced (in comparision to the current relationship =
between the
non-human races). You haven't provided any justification for this, other =
than
'the simple system that I've proposed requires it to be so' and 'it =
feels right
to me'.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>There may well be a reasonable
justification for this, but it hasn't been presented so far (what =
Micheal
recently posted shows a possible path of reasoning, which needs concrete
examples and comparisons).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>This is an important issue that =
affects
all players, and should be carefully thought through. It isn't simple =
because
the benefits and costs vary in nature - how do you value a discount on =
an
optional Skill, for instance?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Cheers</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Errol</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of</span></b>
Jonathan Bean<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, 27 August =
2007 09:26<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] Racial =
Modifiers
- Rule change?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Hi =
all,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Errol =
asked:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>&gt; The original proposed method =
of
'buying off' of their mods will cost the giant 4.3 times&nbsp;as much as =
the
elf. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>&gt; Is this the intent? If so, =
why?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I wanted a simple =
system.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I wanted something that is constant =
and did
not change or need reference to a table in the rule book for =
GMs.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I wanted to make sure that the top =
end
remains as slow and hard as it is now, while having the 'lighter' RM =
falling
away more quickly.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I don't care that is not 100% =
balanced as
at the moment these races already pay some experience points to their =
RM, so
any gain is fine with me.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If others would like to put forward =
a rule
change for voting on at the next GMs meeting, that is fine with me. It =
could be
based on the one I put forward or changed or whatever, I don't =
mind.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I have put forward this one as I =
see it as
addressing some issues while not being perfect, but better than we =
currently
have.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If we have more that one item on =
the rules
agenda for voting on at the coming GM's meeting we will sort it out at =
the
time.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Kind =
regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><st1:PersonName
style=3D"BACKGROUND-POSITION: left bottom; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: =
url(res://ietag.dll/#34/#1001); BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat-x"
tabIndex=3D"0" w:st=3D"on"><strong><b><font size=3D3 color=3D"#52717f"
 face=3D"Trebuchet MS"><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS";
 color:#52717F'>Jonathan =
Bean</span></font></b></strong></st1:PersonName><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabIndex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Errol Cavit<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, 26 August =
2007 4:47
p.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] Racial =
Modifiers
- Rule change?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I'm not sure if people are =
realising the
difference in cost currently vs. the cost to get to a mod of 1.0. I =
certainly
didn't until I'd been thinking about it a =
bit.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Currently a giant 'pays' 33,333 EP =
per
100,000 EP earned for the pleasure of being a =
giant.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>An elf pays 16,667 per 100,000, =
that is,
half as much.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>This effects both of them =
throughout their
career.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>The original proposed method of =
'buying
off' of their mods will cost the giant 4.3 times&nbsp;as much as the =
elf. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Is this the intent? If so, =
why?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Bernard's suggestion is closer to =
the
current ratio (the giant pays 2.4x the =
elf).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>If we want the cost to remove the =
mods to
reflect the relative cost that is being paid now, then all we need to =
say is
'when you have earned x,000 EP, your racial mod goes to =
1.0'.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>If x is 300, a giant has paid (3 x =
33,333
=3D 100,000) at this stage, and an elf (3 x 16,667 =3D =
50,000).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>By the way, elves currently pay =
1.8x what
dwarves/orcs/halflings do, buying off will take 2.8x (2.5x under =
Bernard).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Cheers</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Errol</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original =
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of </span></b>Bernard
Hoggins<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, 25 August =
2007
21:55<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] Racial =
Modifiers
- Rule change?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Looking at the maths people are putting forwards for this idea,
currently it seems to be proposed that a Giant will take somewhere in =
the
region of 1 million to 1.5 million raw EP to pay off their racial
modifier.&nbsp;&nbsp; Taking the standard EP awards that I see this =
means we
are expecting the racial modifier to be paid off in something like 40-60
adventures.<br>
<br>
While this doesn't sound too excessive, many people only play a given =
character
once or maybe twice a year, so we are talking something like 20 years to =
pay
off the EP modifier.&nbsp; To me this feels to be excessivly long term, =
even
for a long running campaign.<br>
<br>
Keeping Jono's simplicity system in mind, I'd like to propose a stepped =
system,
which will reduce this amount somewhat. (taking into account that low =
level
adventures award perhaps 1/2 the EP of high level adventures this will =
not be
as much of a speed difference as the numbers seem to indicate)<br>
<br>
1.5 to 1.4: 50,000 raw<br>
1.4 to 1.3: 100,000 raw<br>
1.3 to 1.2: 150,000 raw<br>
1.2 to 1.1: 200,000 raw<br>
1.1 to 1.0: 250,000 raw<br>
<br>
The net result will be that a high em race will begin to get a lower EM =
fairly
early on, but to get from 1.1 to 1.0 will take a while.<br>
Summing this up, a Giant would need a total of 750,000 ep raw, while a =
dwarf
would need 250,000 raw to get rid of their racial mod totally.&nbsp; =
Bringing
it more into the sensible lifespan of a character.<br>
<br>
For simplicities sake, I'd apply the change in EP modifier on the =
adventure
they make the cap in raw EP, (E.G Bob the Dwarf has earned 230,000 ep, =
then
gets 25,000 on an adventure, as this will take him to over 250,000 ep =
total, he
then uses the 1.0 modifier for that adventure), rather than trying to =
break it
on exactly 250,000 e.t.c. since that will cause fractional maths.&nbsp;
Existing characters should be able to summarise their raw EP fairly =
easily to work
out where they should be now.<br>
<br>
I'm also of the opinion that backdating the extra ep will be very =
difficult to
calculate accuratly across the entire board, since it will need a GM to =
sign
off on each and every backdating to make sure maths errors haven't crept =
into
the system somewhere, as the formula to calculate across up to 5 =
variable steps
isn't going to be the simplest.<br>
<br>
Bernard<br>
<br>
<br>
From Bernard Hoggins<br>
nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Feel safe with award winning spam protection on Yahoo!7 Mail. <a
href=3D"http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/optusnet/spam_protection/*ht=
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</blockquote>

</blockquote>

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-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?
FromAndrew Withy
DateMon, 27 Aug 2007 19:40:08 +1200
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I'm not sure I like the idea of paying off EM multipliers. If we have it, it
should be simple and clean.

 

To this end, I'm very keen on not back-dating any EP gain. This leads to
nightmarish bookkeeping, paritucalrly if your 10-120 year old cahracter
isn't 100% on a single, integrated spreadsheet. And it's just a big lump of
EP, from nowhere. Backdating stuff always leads to stupid compliations -
lets just avoid it.

 

KISS

 

Andrew


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<div class=3DSection1>

<blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I&#8217;m not sure I like the idea =
of paying
off EM multipliers. If we have it, it should be simple and =
clean.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>To this end, I&#8217;m very keen on =
not
back-dating any EP gain. This leads to nightmarish bookkeeping, =
paritucalrly if
your 10-120 year old cahracter isn&#8217;t 100% on a single, integrated
spreadsheet. And it&#8217;s just a big lump of EP, from nowhere. =
Backdating
stuff always leads to stupid compliations &#8211; lets just avoid =
it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>KISS<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Andrew<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</blockquote>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?
FromHelen Saggers
DateMon, 27 Aug 2007 22:51:56 +1200
Im with Andrew on the back dating, of ep.
It will just be one big mess working out how much and from when,
particularly if a stepped system is introducted. We would need a committe to
do the checking, and I know some of you's guys would have trouble finding
all the records needed.
You don't need all the records for the last 10-120 yrs to do a (ballpark)
total ep audit, then your either over the required total to reduce/remove
the EM multiplier or not and you apply that from now on.
No refund.
Once a total ep has been established it will be easy to keep the total
updated as long as they still have some sort of multiplier.

Helen

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew Withy" <awithy@ihug.co.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?


> I'm not sure I like the idea of paying off EM multipliers. If we have it,
it
> should be simple and clean.
>
>
>
> To this end, I'm very keen on not back-dating any EP gain. This leads to
> nightmarish bookkeeping, paritucalrly if your 10-120 year old cahracter
> isn't 100% on a single, integrated spreadsheet. And it's just a big lump
of
> EP, from nowhere. Backdating stuff always leads to stupid compliations -
> lets just avoid it.
>
>
>
> KISS
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>


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